Township fires up funds

Funding is more than halfway secured for a new fire truck in Grand Haven Township, and now it is up to its taxpayers to decide if they want to meet the township halfway.
Kyle Moroney
Apr 10, 2012

 

The Township Board on Monday unanimously approved $400,000 from the township’s general fund to go toward the purchase of a $725,000, 75-foot “quint” fire apparatus. Board members Bill Kieft, Laurie Larsen and Bob Worthington were not present for the roll-call vote.

“It’s a piece of important equipment,” Township Trustee Tom Jenkins said during the meeting.

Township Manager Bill Cargo said he had received some questions about funding for previous fire trucks purchased in the township. The past two trucks were purchased with money in the Fire/Rescue Department’s fund balance. However, they are unable to do that now because there has not been an increase in the Fire/Rescue fund due to the recession, Cargo said.

“That’s why we’re looking for support from the general fund,” Cargo said. “There are 11 different funds in the township … the general fund is able to support those other funds.”

After the board approved the fire truck funds, Kenneth Hoexum of Spring Lake Township raised concerns of federal and state taxes becoming a burden on citizens throughout the country. He inquired about how many fires the township fights each year, what the urgency is in purchasing the quint, and asked officials if they could defer the purchase of the truck.

“It’s just the burden of taxation that is being imposed on all citizens in the country today,” Hoexum said after the meeting. “And if we don’t stop it, our country isn’t going to be here anymore.”

The Grand Haven Township Fire/Rescue Department fights about 36 fires a year, according to Fire Chief Tom Gerencer.

There are two millage options that the board will be considering to cover the remaining $325,000 for the quint: a one-year, 0.62 mill that would cost taxpayers with a $100,000 home $31; or a two-year, 0.31 mill that would cost taxpayers $15.50 each year.

Cargo said the next step is for board members to decide on a millage option and adopt a ballot proposal for the Aug. 7 election. That is expected in May, Cargo said.

To read more of this story, see today’s print or e-edition of the Grand Haven Tribune.

Comments

fbr17644

The fire department says they run about 36 fires a year, and I'm wondering how many of those fire have required the roof to be ventilated? I also question why the township feels they need a 750,000 quint, when Grand Haven City and Ferrysburg both have aerials and are willing to assist the township if they are called to do so? To me it does not make sense to spend that kind of tax money on a truck like this at this time, when neighboring communities are their to help..

newspaperlawyer

GRAND RAPIDS, MI – A new kind of firefighting apparatus will cost more than expected, though not enough to have a significant impact on projected savings from deploying the vehicles.
Grand Rapids City Commission tonight will authorize the purchase of three “quick-response” fire trucks and one training unit from HME, Inc. in Wyoming. The total cost of $855,118 runs about $55,000 over budget.
City leaders in February agreed to spend $872,900 of revenue from a 5-year income tax hike to buy the vehicles and pay for training supplies, including construction of a burn building. The vehicles and training unit were expected to cost about $800,000.
“It’s the overhead costs we underestimated a little bit,” said Fire Chief Laura Knapp, noting that HME will custom-build the trucks to city specifications. The $139,408 training unit should arrive by the end of July and the three vehicles that each cost $238,570 should arrive by December, she said.

People: I have NO idea what the hurry is for this purchase... Muskegon Hgts just took delivery of a new pumper truck... This vehicle was purchase with a federal grant... has the twp even looked into this type of funding , like a federal matching grant...

GRFD was just listed as one of the best fire department in the US.... They are looking at ways to cut cost of man power, equipment and dispatching less equipment to the scenes... I'm not a firefighter... but I would think we could learn from one of the best departments in the state. They are purchasing smaller quick response vehicles... Sounds to me if this new quint vehicle is the first out vehicle... and the maintenance cost is much much more on this vehicle... it sounds like a bunch of kids that wants anew toy...
The reason the fire department has no money due to the start up of this new paramedic unit.. They don't have enough money in the budget due to this duplication of service. North Ottawa Community Health Systems has a paramedic unit not more than 6 blocks from the twp......

greatfulcitizen

What an insult! "it sounds like a bunch of kids wanting a new toy". As a GHTWP taxpayer I see it as a department who wants the best for the community and its citizens. You say use Ferrysburg - okay by the time their guys respond and come across the bridge you're looking at at least 10 minute time delay providing the bridge is not up and they can fight their way through the insane traffic. A home could be destroyed in that time but more importantly, a life could be lost. No, GHTWP does not have a lot of high rise apartments etc but there are a few. For a mear $15 to $31 A YEAR we can give our firefighters the equipment they need to save more lives - I see that as a no brainer. I am a very greatful citizen who has had family on the receiving end of their quick responses more than once. I will gladly pay the $15-$31 a year more to help save more lives!

BBB

greatfulofitcitizen

you just dont get it, gr haven city has this piece of equipment that ght can call on if needed
by saying $15-$31 is mear to save more lives is exactly the fear tactic i spoke of earlier
that said you must be either rich or work for some municipality
$15-$31 is still my money and bieng a single home owner i can use it .......
like to clean bike paths or run harbor transit in ght or to pay for the fire rescue millage that we still have to pay for. townships dont want the crap politics and policies that go on in cities
if thats what you want move to the city.
p.s.how many people in the last 10 years have died in fires in ght

greatfulcitizen

I do get it thank you very much! We are very fortunate in our township not to have a lot of fatal fires again due to the quick response. Say what you want but I don't want it on my conscience if someone does die in a fire because I was too cheap to help provide the equipment. Everyone is on a budget, myself included but I know how to prioritize so if I have to give up Starbucks coffee for a few weeks to make this possible then so be it! I put human life before a few dollars!

BBB

greatfulofitcitizen you prioritize to pay more in taxes ????
you my friend are nutz, dont forget nov. the king obama needs your vote and your money

greatfulcitizen

I am not "Nutz". I am a human being who cares for other human beings. I don't necessarily want higher taxes but if it means saving a life then I will do my part, even for those who are too cheap to do theirs. It is so sad that society today puts a few measly dollars a year before human life. Think about that the next time you have to call for help and regardless of your comments to this issue, the fire department is right there to assist you!

BBB

HOW ABOUT WE LET A FEW MILLAGES EXPIRE BEFORE YOU BEG FOR MORE
I KNOW I WOULD LIKE TO SEE MY TAXES GO DOWN OR AT LEAST STAY THE SAME
THE TOWNSHIPS 400,000 IS THE RESULT OF LEFTOVER MONIES FROM THE LAST
FIRE/RESCUE MILLAGE
WHEN ARE GHT RESIDENTS GOING TO WISE UP
IF AUG. MILLAGE DOES NOT PASS WATCH THE BOARD WRAP IT UP IN SOME
FORM OF FEAR MILLAGE

WISE UP GHT THE ONLY REASON YOU GET SCREWED IS BECAUSE YOU LET THEM SCREW YOU
VOTE OUT THE WHOLE BOARD AND ELECT SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO CUT COSTS

SAVE MONEY AND USE THE RESOURCES THEY ALREADY HAVE

Justthefactsplease

If you live in the Township,I suggest you get out your recent tax bill,there has to be at least a dozen areas where your monies are being allocated, bet you don't have any idea when these will mature. The TWP stated there are dozens of funds,soo go get the money there, "if" the TWP. really needs/wants this truck.

newspaperlawyer

A semi-trailer truck parked at a Grand Haven business caught on fire early Friday evening, destroying the contents of the truck and a nearby stack of wooden pallets, according to Lt. Joe Boyle of the Grand Haven Department of Public Safety.

Firefighters were called at 6:26 p.m. to Grand Haven Custom Molding, 1500 S. Beechtree St., where they found the semi fully involved in fire. A forklift was used to remove the smoldering contents from the semi in order to put out the fire, Boyle said.

A damage estimate and cause was not available.

Grand Haven Township firefighters assisted at the scene.

This was part of the 36 fires the twp ran... in the City of GH... I say combine the GH City fire services and then we don't need a new fire truck...

Are they trading in one of the pumpers that they are replacing... Don't think... this was'nt in the back of the chiefs mind on buying a new truck when the Fire mileage vote was extended...

lol125

So I see the $400,000 has been agreed upon towards the new quint arial Fire Truck. And now it appears to that there is a push to place the 300,000 plus dollars needed to complete the purchase on the new millage ballet in August for tax payers to vote on. GHTFD is now doubt an excellent service run by dedicated professionals serving the community. But this new proposed truck purchase is unrelated to that. This is about purchasing a new truck at tax payers expense that will rarely be used. GH City Fire Dept. has the truck they need in a moments notice in case of a big fire, as well as Ferrysburg F.D. Out of the 36 fires that GHTFD responded on, how many were tall appartment or building fires that would require an airial truck? The 36 fires that are referred to included car fires, wild fires, stove fires, chimney fires, etc, So in other words the word "fire" has to be taken into context regaurding it's relativity in this situation. Now lets talk about Mr Cargo's statements of having depleted funds due to the recession. What he hasn't mentioned is the past August 2011 Millage that projected a whopping $886,000 revenew over the next year exclusively, by the way to fund their fire.recue department. Where is this money Mr Cargo? Or how about the fact that several of your fire fighters have recently received 4% pay hikes for 24 hr shifts. Part timer wages increasedreportedly from $14.00 to 18.00 per hr. These hikes are cheifly in support of the ALS Paramedical staff, equipment/training, etc. Statisticaly lifes are saved by early defibrillaion and CPR which are basic skills that can be and are part of this areas MFR 's ( MI First Responders.) training and skill level. This tax proposal appears very excessive and possibly should be looked at by other non partial agencies that perhaps could shed a different light on the subject in an attempt to facilitate a sound fiscally resposible approach from GHTFD administraters and the politicians they have become.

bsflag.2012

lol125 you are so correct on your statement. I do not think for one minute that the tax payers in Grand Haven Twp don't feel they have a great fire service. I recall some articles earlier that public services should look at ways to cut cost and stop duplication's of services. I think the public school's in the tri-cities area have shown great work by sharing repair services and administration costs. Why the fire departments don't share more. It's like fire departments trying to out do the other. I would support as a tax payer of doing away with individual fire departments and supporting a mileage for all public safety county wide. I understand from one of the firefighter sources that this price tag of $750,000.00 has some real hidden cost. This also includes equipment to replaced the borrowed medical equipment for the duplicated Paramedic Unit. If its true that the township could look at getting a grant to fund this piece of equipment this should be the course of action taken. But I'm thinking that from all the fluffy equipment purchases in the county from the Homeland Security Federal Grants the money has dried up now.

BBB

explain to me how a part time fireman is worth 18.00 per hour
muskegon part timers make 14.00 wtf
way to go ght

bsflag.2012

I would like to see the Tribune do a little investigative reporting... Please check with the CIty of GH for the number runs the City of Grand Haven was summonsed to assist Grand Haven Twp with the aerial truck... or better yet how many times GH twp has been requested to assist GH City on fires due the fact they can not get enough man power on the scene without calling people in on OT ... more smokin mirrors... See the fire departments and building Inspectors have done such a great job.. with building codes and inspections to make sure that we don't have fire fatality... I take my hat off to all... but I support a new fire truck... not a aerial or "quint" as they call it today... I say put it on the ballot... The Twp surely asked the tax payers for additional police protection and it was voted down... Now the Twp just sets a special assessment to get around it.. so now I'll pay for twp police and fire millage... along with the taxes I already pay for the State Police and County Sheriff.

twpresident

There is a lot of misinformation in several of these statements and I would question if some of you are even residents. For those of you that are and wish to have the facts, please don't hide behind a screen name. Come into the fire station and ask to speak to the fire chief and get the facts.

fbr17644

Twpresident, I likeed
you comment about people not hiding behind screen names. Last I checked, I believe you spent a long career on GHT if I'm not mistaken? Also, I did a little research as you should to...how many fire departments, including the number one rated fire department in the state run a quint as a first out truck? I can tell you, they are few and far between. As I said in a earlier post, this is a waste of taxe dollars.........

twpresident

FBR17644, I believe you are mistaken on who I am. I am not someone who has spent a long career at GHT? I am just a resident who knows the facts and I know that several of these post including yours is full of false information. All I wanted folks to do is instead of debating the facts on this forum where no one truly knows the truth is to go to the fire department and ask questions and find out the truth, not believe people who do not do the job or have a hidden agenda. If you are not sure why they need a "quint" vs. a regular fire engine or why they need a truck at all or want true answers to any of the false information that has been written in this forum you need to go there and ask. I did and I support them!

bsflag.2012

The Pros and Cons of Quints
ADVANTAGES
It looks good on paper. An increase in pump capacity can be shown, as has been done in Richmond, Virginia, and St. Louis, Missouri, when the departments purchased fleets of quints with 2,000-gpm pumps.
Reduction of staffing = saving money. By staffing each quint with four persons, the staffing of separate truck companies is effectively eliminated. This results in large savings of personnel salaries.
Increase in the number of aerial ladders available. Every piece of apparatus now is equipped with a "big stick."
Apparatus able to perform engine or truck tasks. The quint offers the flexibility to perform as an engine or a truck, as needed.
An all-new fleet. If a department chooses to use an "all-quint fleet," it will acquire an entire new fleet of firefighting apparatus at one time.
Four-door cabs with air-conditioning. This is an advantage over older apparatus, since the firefighters are safely enclosed in the vehicle. Rehabilitation time during hot weather is greatly reduced because of air-conditioning.
Ability to make immediate ladder rescues above the third floor. Having an aerial ladder on each piece of apparatus makes it possible to make quicker rescues above the third floor, since no time is wasted waiting for other companies to arrive.
Superior ladder pipe. The ladder pipe on the quint is prepositioned and is instantly ready for use. It also can sweep a 180° area, as opposed to older-style ladder nozzles, which can only sweep 30°.
DISADVANTAGES
Difficult to maneuver. The apparatus is large, is heavy, and can be difficult to maneuver in traffic. It is more difficult to turn the quint into narrow streets than a pumper. There has been a marked increase in the number of vehicle-involved accidents compared with the times when more traditional apparatus were used.
Increased maintenance and fuel costs. Many separate systems-the water pump, motor and drivetrain, aerial ladder hydraulic system, and electric generator, for example-are placed close together. Mechanics often have to remove these items to access the component in need of repair. This is time consuming and, consequently, costly.
Also, the quints have shown a reduced brake service life and increased tire wear. All 10 tires on Quint 6 needed to be replaced after just 10,000 miles.
Increased response time. Reduced maneuverability has increased response time. Firefighters have found that they have to dismount at short intersections and back up the apparatus, which significantly increases response time.
Also, because the average quint weighs more than a pumper, it is more likely to encounter bridge weight restrictions in the response district, which results in a longer response time.
Increase in unprotected areas during emergencies. The reduction in staffing means that more companies are needed on the first alarm (to have sufficient personnel at the scene). This results in more areas being left unprotected.
Perfect positioning needed. The 75-foot ladder has come up short when perfect positioning at the fire scene is not possible.
All-at-once purchase poses risks. Purchasing an entire fleet at one time is risky because one specification error or miscalculation can result in the entire fleet's becoming problematic for the next 15 to 20 years.
Insufficient personnel for engine and truck functions. It is impossible with a staff of only four firefighters to effectively do both engine company functions and truck company work with the same crew.
Fire station renovations may be needed. Old fire stations may have to be renovated to accommodate the quint. The quint's weight may necessitate changes in the floor support design, and the station's door size may have to be modified to accommodate the quint's height.
Ineffective ladder company function. Many departments that use quints report that ladder company functions are not being performed effectively. Therefore, for normal ladder company functions to be performed in a timely manner, strict operating procedures must be enforced.
Insufficient space for ground ladders. The quint, since it is to perform as an engine and a truck, does not have enough space to carry the equivalent footage of ground ladders as senior tractor-drawn ladders.
Smaller booster tank. The quint's booster tank size might be much smaller than a conventional triple combination pumper.
JAKE RIXNER, a 22-year veteran of the fire service, is a company officer for the Richmond (VA) Department of Fire and Emergency Services, an instructor with Virginia Fire Programs, and a volunteer firefighter with the Kentland Fire Department in Prince George's County, Maryland.

BBB

I agree human life is priceless. I also give credit to our first responders, it takes special people
to take on responsibility of this caliber. but it seems to me our elected officials want a new
millage everytime they have the chance . I wish the trib would have presented more facts and details such as how many years will this millage last? how much to rig the new truck?
how much for training? are they adding this to the fleet or replacing one ? if they replace one
where does the money from this sale go? I am all for improving safty and quality of life in ght
but it would be nice if some milages expire before new ones are implimented.

p.s. if I was cheap i would not live in ght. I chose to live here and never second guessed it
I dont mind paying my fair share, but it would be nice if my morgage did not go up every year.

twpresident

BBB, your comment is exactly why I said that people who have questions need to go to the fire station and ask. Why do you expect to get all your answers from the paper? Most of the folks who have been commenting on this have been spreading false information and it is sad that some people take it as the truth just because someone who has partial knowledge wrote a comment to this article. If you have concerns about where your taxes are being spent, go ask. Like I said, I did, I am informed about the questions you asked because I went to the firefighters and asked why they needed this. They explained and I support their decision. Even if you don't agree with what they say at least you will have the facts.

bsflag.2012

So TWPRESIDENT I hope you got the whole truth and not partial, Because I'm not sure of the information that has been posted which is false or inaccurate. Usually governmental units when asking for the public support they will provide the facts in news form. Then the local news will write a article of supporting the project or not supporting the project. In a couple cases in Grand Haven Twp they have asked for support. A few years back the TWP asked the voter if they would like to support additional law enforcement services this was after a group of citizens had done a study on this. The twp residence voted this down due to the fact they felt they had acquit police protection with the State Police and Sheriff Department. Suddenly I continue to get on my tax bill for a police assessment ( with no expiration date) which was voted down by the tax payers. The Twp has 3 Twp funded county deputies. GH Schools is to be funding one of these position partially. Then the twp approves funding for new sheriff department office. Now we also pay county taxes for police services and still only have one county funded sheriff car providing services to 4 other twps which also includes GH TWP. Now we just approved a mileage for the fire department and they want to purchase a new fire truck due to aging fire trucks. I support a new fire truck.. but we pay for it with the money on hand. If we don't have the money then we don't purchase that nice of a truck. Its called budgeting. But we also know from other projects here in the twp if the public votes it down, then Mr. Cargo will have the board vote for a special assessment and now its not a tax. So just because you have made contact with the twp firefighters and surely the are going to support this new fire truck. Right now I have no faith in the total truth coming out of the township hall. I would rather support taking all the fire departments in the county and making them one.. so everyone gets the benefits instead of wasting tax dollars...

Justthefactsplease

Can someone one help me with the math, $750,000 divided by how may reponses,in its lifetime,10/20/30 yrs equals how much per run? I would suggest a note to the Trusttee's and see how they voted on the issue, don't like their vote ,let them know, do like it let them know, Since the current supervisor has great ties to the Fire Dept. ask him his opinion.

lakeshoremom

I am absolutely amazed at the number of "facts" that people are throwing around on this comment page. Uneducated commenting leads to uneducated voting, and that is irresponsible! So here are some facts: For the average household this ONE YEAR tax will run in the $30-$50 range. This truck is essential to the safety and well-being of our firefighters. The current "first-line" truck is over 23 years old. GH Township Fire/Rescue, in addition to providing fire & rescue services in the township, is also a "mutual aid" department for the City of GH, Robinson Township, and other surrounding areas. Many of the houses and industrial complexes in the area require a truck like the one that the Fire Department is considering. They have done due diligence in researching their options and budgeting their money. And, for those of you who are complaining about the duplication of advanced life support services, I question your reasoning. The advanced services being provided by the Fire/Rescue Department are an enhancement to the local ambulance provider. While it is true that they are providing the same level of care as the ambulance company, they are doing this while you, the patient, wait for the ambulance to arrive on scene. During times of high call volume, ambulance maintenance issues, or under-staffing, this service becomes increasingly necessary. This high level of care has resulted in one of the highest cardiac arrest survival rates in West Michigan. This is a service for which many township residents are very grateful. As the call volume continues to increase substantially from last year, we need to be sure our firefighters are adequately prepared and have a safer environment in which to work. Grand Haven Township provides these services and still has one of the lowest tax bases in the county! That is called being fiscally responsible! And lastly, the comments about the Ottawa County Sheriff's Department were also FALSE! While the vote failed the first time, it did eventually pass. Please be sure to look up your facts before you try to educate or persuade others.

lawnmowerrider

Well said glad we have cops and firefighters that care. About me, my family and look into future needs of our community. If their truck is a 23 year old vetern they must plan to keep a new one for a while.

newspaperlawyer

Lakeshoremom and lawnmowrider: You must be from the same household and well connected to the fire/police community. I understand how you would take offense to the some of the comments listed. But I do think that some of these people that have listed these comments also are connected to the fire/police profession. There is no doubt that the fire department is in dyer need of a new front line pumper truck. The think the twp has in its coffers enough cash to purchase a front line pumper. If the Fire Department is in need of aerial, squirt or " quint" as they call it now.. then it should be put in a line item request for such equipment. If we don't have enough cash in the coffers to pay for it... then what would you do if you can't afford a new car... We buy used... or we save our cash to replace the other pumper that will need to be replaced soon. If this does not work then we come to the tax payers for a fire mileage increase. I believe if the fire department did not waste money on this duplication of medical service they would have enough money to purchase the truck. I'm not sure where you have received your numbers on the cardiac arrest saves but we also know that CPR and early difib is what really saves patients. But I understand that the FD has also placed some hidden costs in the purchase of the new fire truck. These costs are to replace some equipment that had been borrowed to get the advance life unit up and running, at a tune of $60,000.00-$80,000.00. Now for the increase in services... I have no issues with responding to real emergencies. We have several issues here... one being police not having the authority to cancel a responding fire unit to a car accident.. this really hits a sore spot... now trained police officers can't treat patients... SO we know that the fire service and building inspectors has done a excellent job in suppressing real fires over the years. and the need for "fire service" has decreased.. but the need for responding to medical emergencies has increased with 911 services. so it all comes down to turf... Fire Chiefs in the area don't want to give up anything so they come up with ways to increase run volume( EMS runs) so the departments don't get cut. Now for the additional police servces... I have voted at every twp issue and I have never voted for s second request for police services. I do recall Mr. Cargo stating that one way to get the additional twp police would be to make a special assessment for police services. Once again NO issue with additional police services... but having a special assessment that has NO expiration date is wrong. Let the twp come to the voters for a police mileage, increase in fire mileage... or combine public safety mileage to support both the deputies and fire department. I think the twp needs to put in a line item in the budget for replacement equipment or trucks. But we do pay for police services thru our state and county taxes in Ottawa County. I have asked a couple of questions like how many times does GH City send the aerial truck out to Grand Haven Twp to assist. and also how many times does GH TWP send trucks and personnel to assist Grand Haven City due to not having enough staff on duty to fight the fire.

lakeshoremom

Dear newspaperlawyer, You have proven my point quite nicely. You state that lawnmowerrider and I must be from the same household. You suggest a fact that is indeed false. I have no idea who lawnmowerrider is. My biggest concern regarding these posts, yours included, is that they are full of misconceptions. Your portrayal of advanced life support as "duplication of services" is very misguiding. I can support your statement about early CPR and early defib being very important, but undoubtedly, they will not be successful without advanced life support. The GHT Fire/Rescue Paramedics can provide this service, maximizing one's chance of survival. They can make up for extended response times due to reasons listed in my previous posts. They are a true enhancement to the local ambulance provider. Your generalizations about the local fire chiefs are also unjust. You are entitled to your opinions, but please don't try to disguise them as facts. That will only lead to uneducated voting. GHT residents: I encourage you to do the research. Stop in and talk to the Fire Chief. You'll see that the services you receive in GHT are top-notch. And for less than the cost of a tank of gas, we will continue to receive this excellent service through the purchase of a new fire truck.

newspaperlawyer

You just get it.. We have NO issue with the purchase of a new fire truck... that is not the issue at all... And yes I have done my homework by talking with several people in the twp including other twp firefighters and EMS providers. Why would I ask the person who is pushing for this waste of tax payers cash for his opinion. I would like to see the numbers in request for Grand Haven Twp fire requesting assistance with an aerial truck or squirt truck from GH CIty of Ferrysburg City. You must live in a cracker box or something to that size... if your only paying one tank of gas to pay for this new truck. See the $450,000.00 will pay for a new pumper... if we watch how Grand Rapids is doing business.. they are scaling down the size of the trucks and responding units to cut down on wasteful spending.... like combining fire service with Grand Rapids, Wyoming, and Kentwood cities. Police agencies will be next... See several years ago... a very in depth study was conducted on police services in the county. They called for the small agencies becoming one under the direction of the sheriff department which was to cut wasteful spending and duplication of services... If you had done your history and background on these issues... you would find out why the tax payers are starting to ask questions.

lawnmowerrider

Glad to see that if you agree with someone that means you live with them. That’s all I was doing was agreeing. Newpaperlayer you stated that CPR and Defib saves lives which I agree with (So that means we live together now by your standards). I don’t understand what you meant by barrowing equipment to get started. Like barrowing Fire Trucks or barrowing Medications?

 

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