Does it bother you that the federal government is spying on Americans' Internet browsing, phone records and phone calls?

Comments

Vladtheimp

What a great question! If anyone votes that it bothers them a lot, they will be considered potential terrorists and placed on the Obama Enemies List. (That's why I voted "No, as long as it's for national security") Mr. President.

Highlander

Many of the objections in 2013 were pro-Patriot Act implemented under Bush. If you replaced Obama's name with Bush's, I'm sure you'd be supporting this recent activity. This practice has been around for years, easily remembered during the McCarthy era. The main reason there is so much outrage now from "new protesters" is that they see a black President making the calls.

Technology and the whole game has changed since the PA's initial inception, which has been readjusted and renewed multiple times. I would imagine that they know something with regards trends in modes of communication and national security.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat...

IMO, it bothers me now, just as it did back when Bush passed his Executive Order. I understand that we live in a different era and a different world today, and that changes need to be made (just like with the 2nd Amendment-outlawing Tommy Guns in the 30's, Voting rights, Slavery, etc). I am against the PA especially without warrants, but understand the need, and hope & expect that leaders use this Executive Order as intended.

If you are angry about Obama's use of the PA, are you remotely concerned with Snyder's "executive order" of Emergency Managers (despite questionable results), the less than democratic process regarding his RTW mandate (and his change of tune), and his ignoring of data? How about moving a $billion from edcuation and moving it to business subsidies? What not subsidize education....correctly; if it's good for business, it's good for.... blah, blah, blah.

Highlander

The last thing I'll add is if you're upset with the gub'mint data mining, why aren't you concerned with Google, Yahoo, Facebook and other social media outlets mining for your data? They use you by offering some "service" and collect all of your info, your purchasing habits and trends. But it's ok because it "business". The gub'mint does it supposedly for national security and after 10+ years of PA it's suddenly Orwellian? Please.

Wingmaster

Gubment is using this data mining for political gain, business using it to sell some thing to us. We don't have to buy. We know the above mentioned companies are doing that. We didn't know how deep gubment has dug in and probably never will.

We get a gubment playing their political parties will, not the peoples, when corruption thru these tactics takes place.

Before I kick the rest of your Lany'ering soap box out from underneath you, answer my questions about the race card you and your side plays everytime BO or his administration gets caught dirty. He is no cleaner and worse in some instances then any other Pres. and their Administrations. Funny how Dems run to the race card in these discussion then bitch about unfairness from the other side! Who needs the diversity training?

If your comfortable with a government, with any political party in charge, secretly probing into records unbridled like this you deserve the the results we get. Just remember, political landscapes change and when your party is out, don't whine when you get audited or singled out because of your affiliations!

Lanivan

Well Wing, which is the problem - "BO", or "any political party in charge". You keep yammering, flip-flopping, and tap dancing, and it just isn't clear what you think. Race card? I haven't read any comments here that bring up the race card except for yours.

Ever hear of J. Edgar Hoover? Of course you have! Read this for a good time.....
http://www.slate.com/articles/ne...

And by the way, it's the job of the IRS to audit returns - if you don't have anything to hide but get audited, that's life in America. If you do have something to hide, well then, let's stop the whining. As for the recent IRS/Tea Party thing, they are moaning over the fact their applications for tax-exempt "social welfare" status were simply being reviewed - very few were actually denied the status, even though I bet my bottom dollar they couldn't be a primarily "social welfare" group even if they were given lots of money. Meanwhile, until their applications were fully processed, they were free to do all the "social welfare" they wanted - they just couldn't have tax-exempt status. And oh yeah, they could not keep their donors anonymous.

Wingmaster

Everything gets abused by government if we let it.

Inserting the race card is another example of lowering the bar of performance for this POTUS. Why doesn't he repeal that damn Patriot Act? Why doesn't any party push to repeal it? We have a serious politcal problem in this country. They have pushed beyond the limits of the Patriot act and BO is the guy sitting in the chief executive seat.

If you feel the other amendments need to change with the times we probably should look at the first amendment right! After all we didn't have all of this instant free speech and communication reaching millions back when it was written...right. Dangerous to governments for people to freely share thoughts and ideas. It could destabilize governments that are corrupt right! It might expose corrupted leaders. Why we may be able to expose what is really going on. Maybe we should limit internet use as it is far more powerful then the paper and pen they used back then! Blah, blah, blah.

Leave the Constitution alone...it is OUR only protection during corrupt times as these!

Amazing how perfectly written the bill of rights is and how thoses founders had incredible insight into the future to protect the common citizens from government over reach!

Besides, BO was the guy that was supposed to "change" how government is run...remember all that campaign huff and puff...transparency, what a joke.
Far as I'm concern Synder should let Detroit and others go bankrupt and bulldoze them. Anything that's good there will move to a better run city. Everything that's bad can have their pig pen. Bet every Democrat in the state would piss and moan that he isn't doing enough to help the 'po folks.

Highlander

The Constitution is considered a living document, and imperfect. The Bill of Rights was a response to possible oversights and potential misuse. The Amendments have been added along the way- changing the law of the land- as the USA changed, hence the newer laws outlawing slavery, citizenship, voting rights, civil rights, etc. You might want to read both documents sometime with some one who can interpret the document from the "historical perspective" of the Founding Fathers, rather than some knucklehead politician who misquotes and prostitutes the documents for his/her political ambitions. If we had "left them alone" we Americans would still own slaves, not allow select Americans over 18 the right to vote, etc.

Did you write to Snyder or representative regarding "letting Detroit go bankrupt & bulldozing them?" How about when Snyder moved a $Billion from education to subsidize business? How about when Engler took millions of dollars from the teacher pension fund (which had been contributed to by teachers for years, and would not have an impeding deficit in the pension fund because of his "theft"). Engler's closing and defunding of mental hospitals and social programs that helped take care of US Veterans in need, the poor, mentally ill, etc. Many of whom are now either on the street or in prison costing the people of Michigan even more money.

Re-read and answer my points above one by one and shoot them down with facts. I imagine you cannot.

Wingmaster

Really! Isn't it funny how the Constitution is a living breathing document and imperfect when libs want their way. By the way, none of the original ten amendments have been changed thru amendments, for good reason. Seventeen have been added, two of which cancel out the other.

Read the doc from a "historical perspective". LOL more code speak for political shenanigans to amend it because the smart document keeps them hemmed in so they can't over reach into our lives. They want to present it as outdated and in need of pruning and fixing. Well the founders made it difficult to amend for a reason. We have seen over 11,000 attempts to amend it from all sides of the political spectrum.

I'm not chasing any more of your shinny objects as I thought the topic of discussion was Feds spying on the American people. I take it from your smoke and mirrors only BO and his underlings have the ability to restrain themselves in the use of the PA. We have alleged evidence to the contrary if you haven't notice! Lets stay on point shall we.

Wait to grind your political axe when the topic comes up and try not to dilute this thread!

Wingmaster

Hey Getting Highinlander, don't know why but I wasted some time reading some history on your left factless charges. I only looked up the area of health care, in particular mental health care.

Before I get to that, you bitch because he (Engler) eliminated general welfare assistance for able-bodied adults. So fricken what! That social program was in need of serious reform when Engler cleaned it up. It still is in need of cleaning. Let us not forget you had Granholm for just a few years (sarcasm) to "fix" all the damage done to all of the nipple suckers in the state!
Granholm also could have spent more time funding like a good Demorat.

Mental health care is better served in local communities closer to families. Studies since the 60's show state run mental institutions ineffectively dealing with mental health. Again, Grandstandholm had plenty of time to address funding...but...(cricket noise)

Hope you enjoy your comfy secluded highland living while acting like libs always do....indignant, ineffective and hypocrites.

This probably goes unread but thought a few facts might shed the light of truth here!

Mystic Michael

Well stated, Highlander. Hear, hear!

Lanivan

Agreed!

Vladtheimp

Well Lanny, you and your merry band of men in tights have proved a number of things by the comments here:

1. Liberals have no sense of humor - I made a comment clearly intended to be humorous, which caused liberal panties to be irrevocably wadded;

2. Liberals have no independent ideas - their knee-jerk reaction to any faint criticism of the boy President is along the lines of Bush did it first; Bush did it worse; it was Bush's program but times have changed and it's acceptable now, because we can trust Obama; or the new ones thanks to the Skirted-One - Snyder is doing worse things and so are social media. Puleease!

3. On national security, apart from the above memes, we hear that we don't like it but Obama says it is transparent and necessary to keep us safe, all the while yammering about how it will be catastrophic if we don't open the borders and give some 30 million people we know nothing about a path to citizenship, all before we secure the border, and we have to do it in the next month. Never mind the drunk drivers, pedophiles, felons, gang bangers, and illiterates that will now be our neighbors and dependents. Never mind the impact on the already devastated black community with respect to employment - I guess Hispanics are now the favored minority du jour of the democrat party. Hypocrites, thy name is democrat.

4. Liberals conveniently forget that Obama had majorities in the House and Senate for almost 2 years (and don't try to feed me the B.S. talking points that in the Senate the majority wasn't filibuster proof because of 2 independents - Bernie Sanders, who is more progressive than any elected democrat? Joe Lieberman - who votes faithfully democrat on virtually every issue save Israel). Why didn't Obama pass gun control, comprehensive amnesty, repeal the Patriot Act (instead of expanding it), close Gitmo, etc. etc.? I'll tell you - either he didn't believe in these priorities as much as he wanted them as campaign issues, or he didn't want to take the blame since they are wildly unpopular among the voters as a whole. Hypocrites, they name is democrat.

And Skirted-One, since you are so good at research, as demonstrated by providing links to all of the corporate misfeasance, why not provide links to you have to support your allegations about Jefferson, so we can fix on your brilliance?

Finally, Lanny and Merry Men, how about explaining how killing civilians with drones, Obama's signature contribution to the war on terror, is supported by the Constitution ( due process for starters), by Jefferson, and by Obama's many promises. Extra credit for clarifying how foreign and domestic terror suspects would prefer being incinerated from the sky rather than 3 hots and a cot at Gitmo - if you go the route of the 72 virgins, please explain how the incinerated parts - Oh, never mind, just Beam Me Up, Barry.

Lanivan

For starters, if you have to explain that a statement was intended to be humorous, it isn't. Also, please don't pile on with the Men in Tights metaphors, a truly fine movie, right up there with Blazing Saddles. And I'm not a liberal, although there's nothing wrong with being a liberal. I'm a progressive conservative with centrist leanings and independent gradations. Mystic Michael has referred to himself as a progressive with pragmatic libertarian overtones. Highlander - ? So it's difficult to respond to #2. Basically your summation of Bush/Obama is correct, true and accurate, in that order.

3.) Apparently you are a Cruzian Tea Partier, not a Rubic Tea Partier. The GOP is so fractured these days, one must get creative in their labeling.

And it's way past my bedtime, not to mention tonight was "book club", so I will begin research on the pressing issue of the 72 virgins tomorrow.

Lanivan

On immigration, follow the votes. Your party is pressing for immigration reform because they are trolling for votes in the 2014/2016 elections. They are reading the memos that show that today in the US, Hispanics represent a majority of all births, and that for the first time ever, white deaths are exceeding white births. Your conservative argument against immigration reform, although convincing, can not match the compelling CBO report that the Immigration Reform bill would reduce federal deficits by about $200 billion in the next 10 years, and about $700 billion in the following 10.

Arguing for or against the NSA is the ultimate nailing of the jello to the wall, calling for the need for jello shots to maintain one's composure. The Republicans have supported and advocated for government surveillance since time immemorial. Perhaps the reason is the vast number of private contractors benefiting from classified surveillance work that used to be done by the federal government. As for Obama, it's a no-brainer. When it comes to national security, he is very hawkish. He opposed the Iraq War because he felt it was a dumb war. It makes perfect sense that upon experiencing 10 years of a dumb war, he would gravitate to drone warfare when necessary. The killing of four Americans since 2009 is unsettling, but this is what they say to justify it: "Calling the decision to use lethal force "one of the gravest our government" can face," Holder said the operation targeting al-Awlaki received "exceptionally rigorous" legal review and additional policy screening by the administration. Congress was also briefed on the possibility of targeting the al Qaeda figure and informed once the decision was made in 2010.

In his letter Holder said Obama approved a policy document this week that "institutionalizes the administration's exacting standards and processes for reviewing and approving operations to capture or use lethal force against terrorist targets outside the United States and areas of active hostilities." http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/22/po...

I will let you and Mystic Michael and/or Highlander duke out the constitutional aspect of drone warfare.

My biggest concern is the rising tribalism in this country. It will soon be the 150th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg, and Lincoln's words are ringing loud and clear - "a house divided against itself can not stand". Republican divide and conquer against Democrat unify and liberate; States rights vs Federalism; and the basis for good government is being sworn off in many ways daily. The national interest that emerges from the compromise among local interests is under attack and is retreating.

E pluribus unum has devolved into a nation divided. Why? Follow the money.

Vladtheimp

Rather than respond to this screed, I am taking the high road and pointing you to this, since you apparently have some interest and if I recall, will be taking a trip east. http://www.mikelynaugh.com/Virtu...

Lanivan

Thanks, Vlad. You recall correctly - the trip has been taken, and many sites visited/revisited. Several years ago, I found myself walking up Cemetery Ridge on July 3, on a hot 100 degree afternoon, and upon reaching the high water mark of the Confederacy, stood along a small stone wall and looked out over the just traveled field where over 6,000 men perished in under an hour.

I now contemplate your description of my comments as a screed, and wonder: Was that sacrifice 150 years ago worth it when now some candy a** who seems to have no honor, integrity or respect for others resorts to juvenile name calling when debating issues in our country?

Vladtheimp

Here's how real representatives of the people debate (a real progressive and a real moderate) with no need for teleprompters, concerns for "political correctness" or fear of being accused of harassment or engaging in a "War on Women." This woman, with whom I disagree, kicks butt and takes names, http://youtu.be/M_-Ie6JQquM

Oh sorry, she actually criticized Obama with facts, which are not permitted here.

Lanivan

Are you referencing my comment, or are you replying to someone else? If me, I have no idea what you are referring to, or what your point is. Or what this has to do with government spying. Or what this has to do with me. Or my opinions. I will, with a spirit of generosity, assume you have misinterpreted my remarks and/or are confused. Or you can elucidate - whatever you feel would be in the best interests of the argument. Is your last sentence another attempt at humor?

Vladtheimp

Please elucidate who is the candy a**.

Lanivan

If you must ask, there is no point in explaining. A clue: it is not one of the 72 virgins.

Vladtheimp

Then I infer I am the candy a**. It's on!

Lanivan

Leeeeroy Jenkins - goin' in!

Wingmaster

Oh look kids, Puff the magic dragon is back, Bravo!

Mystic Michael

You're really checking all the boxes these days, Vlad...

Ideologically-constrained perception of reality? Check.
Highly selective marshaling of evidence? Check.
Add to it now, free-range paranoia as well. Triple check.

MM

Vladtheimp

Oh great liberal/progressive defender of individual rights and privacy, and fearless opponent of government (FBI, NSA, DHS, TSA), over-reaching, please explain why some paranoia is not justified, in view of Obama's wiretapping the Associated Press, alleging reporter James Rosen is a potential co-conspirator to obtain a warrant to obtain phone records/e-mails of this reporter and his family, and to top it off, this: http://rt.com/usa/fbi-director-m...

Be honest and consistent or be gone to Puff's kingdom.

Wingmaster

I voted Hell yes it bothers me;-) Look me up anytime Mr. President but be man enough to have a face to face chat as I have a few things I would like to discuss!

“I am an American; free born and free bred, where I acknowledge no man as my superior, except for his own worth, or as my inferior, except for his own demerit.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

AtomicRooster

The Bill of Rights and Our Constitution is violated every single day of the week, 24/7's 365 days a year we never close. Any time you think you're free, you'd better think again. You're free alright. Free to be told what to do...or else. Our forefathers who wrote the Bill Of Rights and Our Constitution are rolling over in their graves this very moment. Our wonderful politicians have made a mockery of the Bill of Rights and our Constitution. I wonder what would be the first words that Thomas Jefferson would say if he were alive today. I can tell you this it would not be good. Is it right they spy on us? Well H*** No! They should find better things to do like getting the economy stimulated and forget Immigration Reform & Overhaul. There was nothing wrong with the laws that were supposed to be enforced at our borders. And if someone enters ILLEGALLY then they should automatically be deported and no ifs ands or butts about it. Should the ILLEGALS be granted amnesty. Well H*** NO! Deportation IS the only solution.

Highlander

Jefferson would support proper funding of Education (do the research), he would disagree with the decision by the SCOTUS treating allowing corporations to have a vote and excessive influence (do the research), he didn't treat his slaves as animals so I imagine that he's see the humane and just treatment of immigrants, legal and illegal.

Corporations create the climate and demand for undocumented workers to come in search of a better life, just like your ancestors did. Corporations exploit workers, pay the small fine and then do it all over again.
7/11: http://www.policeone.com/federal...

Tyson chicken: http://rense.com/general18/UScha...

I could do this all day. Back up your claims. Black & white, one-size-fits-all reasoning is for small thinkers who cannot be honest in the debate.
http://www.grandhaventribune.com...

MR. WILLIAMS

It should bother ever American Citizen a lot that the NSA is spying on them. If this isn’t a clear sign of a Government doing whatever they want to reach goals only they know what those goals are, I don’t know what else could be a bigger wake up call to The People that they no longer have a say in how this country is being run, but they live in the illusion that they “believe” they do. Believe all you want people, but believing doesn’t mean it’s true. People who believe that the NSA and the President for that matter is telling the truth and are being up front about what they know about recording every American’s phone conversations, I don’t “believe or think” we are even getting the half of it. I think that Edward Snowden is a real “Hero” for sacrificing his life in the name of truth, justice, and freedom by revealing the Government secrets that he has so far and I hope that he has gathered enough information from the U.S. Government about NSA, CIA, Homeland Security, ICE, and all the other Government agencies that claim they are conducting secret operations in the name of fighting “Terrorism.” “We The People” have every right to KNOW exactly what our Government is doing, mind you it is “Our Government” and not the Government operating on its own. If the American people have no interest into the operations in which Our Government is conducting in secrecy that are possibly “Illegal Operations” then they should be exposed for all to see. This Government is not serving the people, it’s serving Government Senator’s, Congress People, and all the different Government Agents unchecked and out of control “EGO,s!” I hope that Edward Snowden is able to carry out his mission which is really a selfless service to all American’s by revealing all the factual evidence of how all the Government Agencies have been operating in secret. I hope he does not get assassinated by black op snipers.

LessThanAmused

A little quote I collected years ago that seems appropriate for this situation.....

Good men believe that the world behaves as they do.
Evil men depend on them believing this.

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